First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

First I would like to thank everyone for there help in advance


Here is the situation:

Have my permit (New Jersey) I have to make my purchase w/i the next 90 days. I have NO experience whatsoever( novice would be a understatment)

From my readings of the other threads one should have at least 2 handguns and one long gun with about 5k in rounds for each and should have 2 sets of spare parts and matinence items for each weapon.


What is the "toyota" of hand guns?.......is it a 9mm and what type specfically??

I MUST.......MUST have a 357 (dirty harry type)........I want the ability to put a intruder down in one shot ...........any recomndations on the nasitest beast of the bunch??



what is the most reliable ammo for these guns?? In case of a shft I want to ablity to use any munitions that I can find without worry about weapon jams


Hit me with everthing you got: links, websites, articles, shops , people I can talk to to get a opinions, I would rather have too much information than not enough.

Again I personally would like to thank everyone for helping me .. I can not explain how fortunate I feel to have this forum of people I can turn to and I know every recommedation will be in my best intrests........places like this on the net are few and far between.



Many thanks

Twisted

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Hmm. First up, try not to blow too much money on guns. ;)

Get what I'm getting...

P226R Double Action / Single Action DA/SA .357SIG (drop-in barrel replacement can take it to a .40 if desired also)

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/sig/sigP226R.asp

If you need to carry something lighter/more compact, then a sub-compact GLOCK .357SIG. Also come in 9mm if desired.

Revolvers are pretty much old hat. They look great, are quite safe to carry around, sound like cannons when they go off, but generally lower muzzle velocities, and limited capacity. The limited capacity being the big worry. You can deal with a jam on a semi-auto etc. but you can't deal with running out of bullets and slow reloads (for most people) on a revolver.

9mm SIG or HK USP if you can afford something like that. GLOCK 9mm are extremely reliable handguns also, but the trigger takes some getting used to and will affect accuracy. HS2000 is another option, but it is a
GLOCK-alike, better trigger, pretty well made, but won't last like a GLOCK.

In terms of rifle. Well you do live in the USA, so I would say, HK, FN-FAL, Arsenal Inc. Forged SAM-7 or similar if you must have auto. Must have removable mags, even if lowish capacity mags. I don't like the idea of clips.

If you want a bolt-action rifle and have a wad of cash you can blow and not think about, then a Sako TRG42 in .338 Lapau magnum with a top quality scope.

I think a serious survivalist would choose 3-4 main guns. Rifle like the above, a semi-auto pistol (with interchangeable barrels to allow different calibres), shotgun (with various loads) or AK. You really don't need more than that. I'm not sure I'd bother with an AR unless it's accurised, scoped, and fires a decent caliber, and you need to keep it clean and maintained.

There is no need to go overboard for most people, and start a gun collection, the above short list of guns properly maintained, will last you forever.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Here are some links to various handgun and rifle forums. Read long, and read deep.

http://www.ar15.com/
http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/
http://www.thehighroad.org/
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/
http://glocktalk.com/forums/

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Greetings - welcome to the wonderful world of firearms. :)

We had a very similar discussion in this thread:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=211625

Perhaps that information can be useful to you as well.

Cheers!

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Primary considerations:

You are new to firearms, so keep it simple. If you are concerned about social breakdown (which I don't consider likely at all), don't buy exotic calibers for which ammo would become scarce quickly. I personally wouldn't worry about getting into extended firefights either, unless you are concerned about social breakdown. Most actual defensive gunfights involve firing one or two shots.

What is most important is that you get something that you can operate quickly and effectively, and actually hit what you are aiming at. "A hit with a .22 is worth 2 misses with a .44 mag". Familiarity and practice are the keys, not magnum stopping power.

Familiarity, to me, requires thousands of rounds of practice. Drawing, aiming and firing a handgun must become something your muscles know how to do without you thinking about it. Your hands learn what a correct grip feels like. Your body knows how to achieve balance for different positions. Your eyes are drawn to the front sight like a moth to a candle. Practice practice practice. This is far more important than stopping power. HIT THE TARGET, quickly and effectively.

Don't buy so much gun that the recoil makes it hard for you to learn to shoot it correctly. This is especially important if you are new to handguns. I know a lot of people who have big caliber guns they read about in some magazine; I know very few who can actually hit anything with them. Mastering big caliber handguns takes years, and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rounds of cumulative practice.

Don't try to shoot fast, especially at first. Get someone who knows how to shoot teach you. You have to teach your body correctly, and trying to do it fast will only screw you up.

Learn what constitutes allowable use of deadly force in your home state. New Jersey isn't known for being gun friendly.

Revolvers are simple, reliable, and easy to operate and clean. Ammo for .38 and .357 is plentiful and common. A .357 revolver can shoot .38 special and so makes a good dual-purpose gun. Short-barreled .357's kick.

9mm semi-autos are common, as is their ammo. With the right ammo, the Colt Commander .45ACP is a fantastic gun but is no beginner's gun. It requires time and mods such as better sights, trigger work, throating, springs, etc. Sorry, I am old school.

Buy the best quality you can reasonably afford. Practice practice practice. No gun is worth anything if you can't hit quickly with it. Hit first.

Be sure to lock up your guns to keep them away from kids (or roommates as may be the case). You must do this. Buy one of those combination quick-open gun vault under the bed thingys for your home defensive gun.

Join the NRA, they are the only reason you can still buy guns in New Jersey.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

NRA?!?!?!?!? :confused_ma: Join Gun Owners of America (GOA) - they don't compromise.

How much do you want to spend? What you can afford greatly dictates what you should own.

5,000 rounds per gun is a little much. 1,000 per gun will probably be sufficient for you. If you are going to shoot a lot save the brass from your initial purchase and reload the brass. You can also get bullet molds for dire emergencies (zombie invasion).

My Recommendations ($1000 budget)
1. Revolver - Taurus Model 608 .357 Magnum w/4" barrel (@$400). Get it blued (not stainless). Shiny guns are pretty at the range, but bad for self-defense. You'll be glad to hear it is a 8-shot revolver. "Was that 5 shots or six, Punk? Oh well... doesn't matter because this is a 8-shot revolver. BANG! BANG!" For home defense ammo get Federal Hydra-shok. Outstanding expansion with limited travel through hard surfaces.

2. Pistol - CZ-52. These can be had for @$170, and they breathe fire like a dragon. No pistol on the market compares penetration-wise. Only available pistol that can defeat body-armor. I know you don't think you will need to shoot at armored intruders, but keep this one in your car in case you are in a shoot-out involving steel/glass cover. BTW... you MUST go to www.makarov.com and spend $75 on the forged firing pin, 16.5 pound recoil spring, and hardened steel rollers if you want it to last. If you can increase your budget by $400 then get the Glock 19. Small enough to carry concealed while offering 15 rds in a double-stack magazine. For carry ammo in the Glock you want Federal Tactical Bonded - pierces glass/steel, but still expands on soft tissue. The CZ-52 military surplus ammo is OK if you buy the right stuff. I like the Romanian surplus at $8.00/72 rounds. The Sellier&Bellot stuff is @$0.15/rd., but it is good modern ammo. All of it is FMJ ball ammo.

3. Rifle - Saiga AK in 7.62x39 w/16" barrel. Buy it through www.rrarms.com. Great service and best price at $247.25. I find that shipping on guns is cheaper than buying in state and paying taxes. Also get some 30-rd. Saiga mags.

Best internet stores:
www.budsgunshop.com
www.gilbertsguns.com
www.rrarms.com

Best auction sites:
www.gunbroker.com
www.gunsamerica.com
www.auctionarms.com

Best ammo sites:
www.cheaperthandirt.com
www.aimsurplus.com

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Congratulations on your firearm ID card and handgun permit.
One question, did you have to take them to court to get the permits or did NJ just give it to you?
It is very difficult to get the ID card and nearly impossible to get the handgun permit.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Thanks everybody for the feedback so for........I realize pratice is the key. familarize and muscle memory and GET QUALITY EDUCATION.

I have no desire to become a gun buff. My main motive is protection in case TSHTF. I fear TPTB more than I fear a thug on the street. I can avoid situations and areas that would put my personal safety at risk. Not so when the TPTB come looking for there "pound of flesh"'.


I will start to research into the links provided thus far


Thanks a mill

T

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Dirty Harry had a .44mag, he did respect the .357 though. You can shoot a .357 all day, I love'em. Fullpower .44mag loads are something you get tired of quick.

Anyway stopping power comes from shot placement, not magic bullets or magic calibers. There isn't a hill of beans worth of difference in stopping power between any of the service calibers.

7.62x25 is my favorite pistol cartridge, ever. It is cheap right now if you're willing to shoot corrosive ammo. A very good thing to own for the reasons stated but I'm not sure it's a good choice as a first gun for a beginner because of various quirks.

If you want to be cool get a .45 or .40. If you want a utilitarian working weapon that you can train with and that can defend you get a 9mm. Guns are cheap, whatever you spend on the gun. It's the ammo that will cost you and it gets mighty expensive shooting the thousands of rounds of .45 or .40 you'll need to get proficient enough to reliably get good shot placement which is the only thing that will stop the badguy anyway. 9mm gets you to the same goal and does so less expensively. They are also easy on the recoil and generous on capacity, two features that are a big plus. Probably all reasons why just about every army has switched to them, even the Russians. Hot 9mm loads approach the power levels of low end .357mags.

If you want a polymer framed pistol try a Glock. If you want a steel or aluminum framed pistol I highly recomend the CZ line. Excellent reliability and durabiltiy, reasonable price, excellent accuracy and a lower bore axis than a Sig which makes for more manageable recoil. The other nice thing about the CZ line is the Kadet Kit. It's a slide and mag that will fit on any 9mm CZ(except maybe the sub-compact RAMI) and converts your pistol to shoot .22lr for really cheap practice. Since it is just the slide you don't have to fill out any paperwork to own it, it isn't technically a firearm itself.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products_handguns.php

Standouts would be the compact P-01, the 85 Combat and the SP-01 if you want a fullsize.

It is a good idea to look at a compact pistol because it is more likely to get carried. A gun can't protect you if it gets left at home.

As for a rifle the first thing you need to determine is what the terrain in your area is like. Wide open spaces require a fullhouse .30cal rifle for long range shots. If you only have around 200 yards of visibility on average it makes sense to choose a rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge. You'll save a holy fortune on ammo and you'll have half the weight to lug around if TSHTF.

A good gun should be able to shoot just about any ammo. Hypothetically speaking FMJ is the most reliable but with most quality guns that is very hypothetical. Practiically speaking FMJ is what you will end up buying thousands of rounds of because it is much cheaper than the alternatives with a few rare expections. For instance if you owned an SKS or an AK that shoots 7.62x39 the most potent hollow point costs the same as the most basic FMJ load despite the wide gulf in performance between the two. 7.62x54r is another case like that. Compare that to something like the American classic .308. You'll pay more than 50 cents per round for basic FMJ and you can pay up to a couple dollars a round for the really primo stuff. The Russians just do things differently I guess.

Money has a lot to do with it, too. If you tell us what your terrain is like and what kind of dwelling you live in, plus your price range we can all have a lot of fun offering up our personal suggestions for you to consider. :D

As for resources, it's a good idea to know what your weapons can actually do. Here are some good sites with some practical experiments.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

http://www.remington.com/products/am...on/ballistics/

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

GLOCK 9mm is the toyota of handguns. AK-47 is the toyota of rifles. Both are highly recommended.

Get hollow point ammo, you'll be fine.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Thanks jay ...I was so worried about getting it .because the more I read ......the more I understood what gun control was about: YOU MUST ASK THE STATE FOR PERMISSION TO DEFEND YOURSELF !!

when I finally relaized that it was like a expolsion went off in my mind and I made getting my permit priority number one!!

The amazing thing I did not have the fight the PD or the State .God and the universe were smiling down on me because I didnt have a to wait long ( I appiled in august) but it felt like eternity.

I really have a very pessimistic view of what is going to happen in the country in the next 24-36 months ( maybe not zombie waste land but 2 steps above it!!)



some other people wanted to know what my budget is and my terrain so they get more specfic about recomdendations.

I will most likely have about a 3k budget for purchases. money wont really be a problem( I am not rich xray tech by profession but it is stable income)

I live smack in the middle of a typical town no yard or real privacy if it ever went down bad I would have to cooperate with neighbors so I wouldnt get over run. so I dont think a rifle will be necsarry I dont have the money to relocate upstate so I have to make my stand near the city (queens) I have a rental property in NJ but that is in the middle of town as well so no real protection there.

When I get my arms I know to make sure it is "blued' the shiny stuff may compromise you in the dark. I now realize pretty has nothing to do with tactical advantage. ( which is what I want)

keep it coming guys........thanks so much

T

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Ah, urban environment with no realistic chance to relocate at present and a $3,000 budget? Well, you're better financed than many.

For a handgun I would recomend the CZ-P01 9x19mm. It's a serious piece, official issue of the Czech police and also approved for NATO issue.

http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=28

The tac rail will allow you to easily mount a light, which is extremely beneficial for ID-ing your target in the target and will also blind an attacker. You don't walk around with the light on, you switch it on when you come upon your enemy.

In the city or in the woods the 7.62x39 rules. It's effective out to 200 yards in the hands of an average shooter and will turn all commonly encountered cover into swiss cheese. That is one of the main reasons for a city dweller to have a rifle, not so much for the long range aspects as for the ability to penetrate cover being used by an attacker. I don't know your state's laws but on your budget you should look at an SKS or an AK. Ammo will be cheap, too. 20 cents a round, the stuff you want is Wolf Military Classic HP. This specific ammo is the most effective against a soft target you can get in this caliber, it fragments.

You'll need more than guns though. Pepperspray fogger units and grenades can be used just like teargas to break up any mobs heading your way in a riot.

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/1lb.htm

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/grenade.htm

A yappy little dog can alert you to trespassers outside. Or try the electronic version.

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/h...tion/index.php

You will also want armor. I reccomend a kevlar LVL II concealable vest, a LVL III stand alone steel rifle plate and a kevlar helmet as the best bang for your buck. Since you may very well find yourself one man or only a few people against a much larger group this is one area you can tilt the odds significantly in your favor. Any way you cut it having your vital organs protected when you feel the need is a huge advantage. As has often been said 1 gun and 1 vest beats 2 guns and no vest. The whole setup should come in around 15lbs, $750 and worth every penny. Consider tactical goggles or Oakley M-Frames for some ballistic eye protection. The vest itself is under 4lbs and can be worn under most clothes easily if you have to go into a bad area. Add the plate and helmet if it's the apocolypse outside. Try these guys,

www.bulletproofme.com

You'll also want a tactical light. I like LED's but they don't always come cheap. Brinkman makes a 3 Watt LED they sell at Target for around $30. I have one and it'll throw a 50+ lumen beam 100+ yards on my property. I wouldn't doubt there's an upgraded model available now. The Surefire 6P is a good old standby.

www.lighthound.com

http://www.flashlightreviews.com

www.candlepowerforums.com

You'll also need something to carry your mags, pepper, etc in. There are a number of good chest rigs and tactical vests out there but usually you pick that out after you decided on which guns you're going to get. Shouldn't cost you over $150 for good stuff though. There are also a number of different concealed carry holsters available and you'll probably need on. I like Jackass/Miami Classic style shoulder holsters and IWB holsters.

That'll just about eat up your budget once the ammo is figured in but you'll actually have tactical overmatch against any adversary you'd be likely to face. Then as time goes on you'll move into more advanced things for even more money, like some tactical training and various weapons accessories, optical sights etc. Probably the only other thing to tack on at the momment would be some reading material or instructional videos to help you learn something about self defense as opposed to just range work but you have to get the basics of marksmanship down first anyway.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

There's been a lot of talk about the .357 sig here at GIM lately.

That round has not caught on enough IMO.:no_ma:

Maybe it's an aussie thing.....:wink::tongue_ma:

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

I concur with what's been said above.

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Here's a couple thousand words then...

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1198170283

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1198170283

If you purchase the .357 revolver you can then get a lever action rifle (think like the old west) and the ammo for your pistol fits your rifle. This will ONLY be good at distances 100 yards or less. Here's a link to Cimmaron Firearms, where you can pick up a really nice lever action. BY NO MEANS are these guys the cheapest way to go. If a lever action rifle 'trips your trigger' and you don't wish to spend this kind of money, look at Winchester or Marlin (especially the Marlin) as they will probably be less expensive. OH, those round things NEXT to the pistols? They are called speed loaders. My WIFE can reload her revolver practiaclly faster than I can reload my CZ52's.

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Rep.../1892Model.htm

If you lean towards semi-auto CZ52 handguns and LIKE the idea of a carbine style rifle in the same caliber as your pistol, then consider either the PPS43 or it's earlier sibling PPSh41, both of which shoot the 7.62x25 that's used in the CZ52. Here's a link to Military Gun Supply for their version of the PPS43 (they also manufacture a PPSh41 and it is on their website as well). I will note again that with this carbine, the distance that it's viable at is LESS than 100 yards. With ANY semi-auto firearm, you REALLY NEED a fair supply of magazines. Note that I have four for each pistol - and they are factory mags - avoid aftermarket CZ52 mags. For my soon to be purchased PPS43, I will purchase at least twenty magazines. Then when I can afford it, I will purchase another twenty magazine, giving me a total of forty 36 round magazines for my PPS43 carbine. NO, I'm not concerned about firing pins or rollers or replacement springs on the CZ52, but I have the armorer's kit that gives me enough parts to rebuild 10 CZ52 pistols, so I'm not really worried.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/sho...roducts_id=132

Do not forget a 'long range' type of weapon. My personal choice is Remington 700 BDL Heavy Barrel. My caliber of choice is .308. My scope is a Burris Signature series 3 - 9 power magnification.

You should ALSO consider at least one shotgun. If you want simplicity, look at 'coach' guns. That's an 18 inch double barrel shotgun, generally in 12 gauge, though they are available in other calibers. If you don't mind a pump shotgun, then Mossberg or Remington 870 seems to be the shotgun of consensus here.

If you are REALLY thrifty, consider an 'over under' type of shotgun/rifle. A 12 gauge shotgun AND a .308 rifle. OR several other caliber choices are available.

Ammo. For your pistols. Bare minimum would be 500 for a revolver and 1000 for a semi-auto. For your carbine, as it would be sharing your pistol ammo, just double whatever you think you need and you'll be good to go. For a bolt action rifle, 1000 rounds is considered minimum. For a shotgun, I would stock at least 500 rounds in a variety of 00, 000, and bird shot.

Notice that I have not discussed any 'intermediate' distance rifles. AK47's are my choice. Others have other suggestions. Leave me to say that short of hordes of 'mutant ninja zombies', chances of needing a semi-auto rifle that covers the 100 - 200 yard range is at best debatable. I have several. And WAY more magazines and drums and ammo than I probably should have. But I've been purchasing them on and off for years and years when they were really cheap.

Here's a link on an extremely tortured Glock...

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php...iew&id=90&Item

To read about the penetrating power of the CZ52, here's a link for that...

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

If you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

The CZ-52 is quirky for a beginner, but the price and capabilities make it worth considering. The biggest thing is to replace three things as soon as you get it:

1. Firing Pin (the cast factory one can break easily)
2. Recoil Spring (the original one is 50+ years old and isn't stiff enough to keep the slide from punishing, or cracking, the frame).
3. Rollers (factory rollers can get out of round and start sliding - if they do you can count on getting a new barrel)

All of these things will cost you $75 (shipping included) from www.makarov.com. This includes the competition firing pin kit which also tunes the trigger pull.

The only other "quirk" is the unreliability of the de-cock lever. You can find out if yours is working by inserting a pencil (eraser end first) into the barrel and de-cocking. If the pencil moves, then there is a risk your gun will fire on de-cocking. MAKE SURE THE GUN IS UNLOADED before trying this!!!

I've been surprised at how accurate this gun is. Very well balanced (easy to keep on target) and tight groups for me with one hand at 25 yards. It is feels great in my large hands. Someone with average to small hands might not enjoy it so much.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

My CZ 52 is set up in almost the exact same way. After the Harrington competition firing pin the thing has a really sweet trigger pull and as you said, darned accurate! As it happens mine also has a working decocker, though I never use it.

I've got a few Aguila IQ 9mm's that got in before they were banned but as it stands it's the CZ-52 that goes on my Mad Max gear. If I can sabot a .357sig down to .30cal that all goes out the window though... muahahaha! :D

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

My CZ-52 is attached to my prospecting back-pack. Just in case I anger a bear or wildcat.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Thanks for everybodys help so far .......

It is going to take me a good 30 days to sift through all the material I got here.and follow up on the links but just skimming some of the sites it looks priceless. I could have spent 500 hours on the net and not come up with the material you guys did in less than 2 hours

I realize that this is serious business. When I purchase that firearm I know my life will never be the same ....... nobody can just do anything to me anymore, I will now have the ability to take them out of this world. That is something I wont just gloss over because anyway you slice it the ramifications are huge. You can be 1000% in the right on a self defense issue but once the media and state and the D A get through with you , you will be lucky if you are not looking at life in prison.

I really am greatful for all the opinions as well....... it really pushes me to think extra ctrical the sugestions that you guys give I dont think I would find gun forum/clinic. everybody is contributing top notch stuff.....


This info Is the best christmas gift I could ever get!!

many thanks

T

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

I agree reliability wise, but I never felt comfortable shoving my G17
into the front of my pants. When my triple safety 1911 is holstered
or otherwise concealed, I don't give it a second thought about it going off!

He's looking for simplicity though, which tells me REVOLVER.
I'd look at 357 so you can shoot / practice w/ 38 specials if you want.

The advantage of revolver to me with a noob is this:
click, bang. click, no bang? Click again, bang!

Not so easy w/ an automatic. More like, click bang, click, no bang,
hmmm...stove pipe? FTF? FTE? Etc.....

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Sounds good! It's definately wise to get familiarized with the subject matter before just jumping in on the first thing you see. It also sounds like you have a level headed approach not only to weapons but also the responsibility of owning and using them.

Re: First Firearm Purchase need advice
 

Even a .380(Small pistol) will feel like the mightiest weapon in your hand when shooting is happening around you.

Get something and get lots of range time.Shoot lots of bullets. Shoot a lot so its natural and you can hit what you need to hit quickly.

Bigger is not always better if you can't afford to get the practice to hit what needs hitting or have recoil issues affecting accuracy.

Have some fun and be safe.

Electric-Amish